I think this is slightly (only slightly) unfair to Hobsbawm and the old Marxists. Yes they did construct “democratic” as meaning the will of (or even “interests” of) the people in the collective sense. They did not prioritise individuals. And they assumed that the outcomes that were good for the collective would be also best for the individuals *that mattered* And tough luck - just deserts in fact - for the rest.
To the modern crop of Marxists your characterisation is entirely fair.
I'd be curious to hear your point there. I'm 20 years out of university. When I was there most marxists who would have been late 60s or during the seventies graduates, did tend to believe that you could educate somebody to vote more socialist. My own experience is increasingly they have less sympathy to that viewpoint.
I think most of them believe they're being true to what they see as best for society. But I would almost suggest they become less interested in process. From that standpoint they become much more hostile to anything that produces outcomes that goes against them.
My time is similar to yours then I guess. When I was there the belief in “consciousness raising” had almost entirely given way to the cynical non-falsifiable claim of “false consciousness” which effectively excuses the left from having to change people’s minds, or perhaps more to the point, excuses the left from having to face up to their failure to change people’s minds.
I’m sure Hobsbawm though, as you say a “last true Marxist”, genuinely believed you could educate socialism into people, and probably saw that as his life’s work and project.
I guess one thing that I might be better at distinguishing, Hobsbawm does become a little jaded by the 1980s. I'd be curious if anyone has ever probed into whether or not that was because of the company that was emerging or because of becoming distraught by the Soviet experiment. He certainly was the last from the 1950s crowd the truly did believe socialism was a viable option.
I think this is slightly (only slightly) unfair to Hobsbawm and the old Marxists. Yes they did construct “democratic” as meaning the will of (or even “interests” of) the people in the collective sense. They did not prioritise individuals. And they assumed that the outcomes that were good for the collective would be also best for the individuals *that mattered* And tough luck - just deserts in fact - for the rest.
To the modern crop of Marxists your characterisation is entirely fair.
I'll add one other point - a Marxist I went to school with entirely believed Lenin was the greatest thinker of the 20th century.
Yeah I have heard that fairly often myself. To me that is signs of someone whose involvement is cult-like.
I'd be curious to hear your point there. I'm 20 years out of university. When I was there most marxists who would have been late 60s or during the seventies graduates, did tend to believe that you could educate somebody to vote more socialist. My own experience is increasingly they have less sympathy to that viewpoint.
I think most of them believe they're being true to what they see as best for society. But I would almost suggest they become less interested in process. From that standpoint they become much more hostile to anything that produces outcomes that goes against them.
My time is similar to yours then I guess. When I was there the belief in “consciousness raising” had almost entirely given way to the cynical non-falsifiable claim of “false consciousness” which effectively excuses the left from having to change people’s minds, or perhaps more to the point, excuses the left from having to face up to their failure to change people’s minds.
I’m sure Hobsbawm though, as you say a “last true Marxist”, genuinely believed you could educate socialism into people, and probably saw that as his life’s work and project.
I guess one thing that I might be better at distinguishing, Hobsbawm does become a little jaded by the 1980s. I'd be curious if anyone has ever probed into whether or not that was because of the company that was emerging or because of becoming distraught by the Soviet experiment. He certainly was the last from the 1950s crowd the truly did believe socialism was a viable option.
*As. Fixed